Curse

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

It is untouched. It's still imba, and they're not doing anything about it. Hence, untouched. I don't care what they tried to do to it previously--the end effect is still the same: you can chain RaO (with high beast) if your pet is alive.

Ergh. Untouched means that they didnt even do anything to it. If you want to discuss things at least use the proper terms. If you didnt think the nerf was hard enough then fine. But don't use misleading terms. Heck it's an outright lie.

Kali Magdalene · Apr 05, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sar Luna

As I see things, with the highest armor level, skills such as endure pain which help boost max life, and a decent array of blocking stances, warriors are clearly intended to grab some aggro, hold it, and survive while doing it. They can dish some damage, spread some conditions, etc, but from a tactical standpoint, the warrior (with its 3 melee-range weapon attributes) is clearly meant as THE penultimate front-line class.

Really? I know people play it like that, and it can be played like that, but is it really intended that this is the primary PVE role?

Quote:

3) They can deal some damage: This never hurts, but again, I've yet to see a straight out damage warrior not be totally eclipsed by an ele in terms of DPS or AoE power.

As I understand it, warrior dps is much better than you say here.

Quote:

I could go on, but I don't want to disrupt the discussion on the SR nerf (or any of the other changes Gaile was kind enough to inform us of). I do, however, find it interesting that while you choose to nitpick one of my supporting arguments, you offer no contest on the MM being overpowered and in need of an SR nerf PvE to help limit it's effectiveness.

You could, but it wouldn't mean anything. Both of the arguments are wrong, but the "they steal the warrior's role" is the more ludicrous.

The only thing that makes the MM overpowered is the environment - Factions is mostly MM-friendly, with everything leaving exploitable corpses everywhere in the game. The second-least MM-friendly mission (Nahpui Quarter) still has enough exploitable corpses for a party with one MM to keep himself supplied with minions during a full circuit of the mission map. Prophecies is less MM-friendly, with a large number of enemies that don't leave exploitable corpses or are quick to exploit corpses themselves, and this leaves MMs as less desirable or even undesirable in several Prophecies missions.

If 90% of the enemies in Nightfall were heavily vulnerable to cold damage, water elementalists would be seen as overpowered in PVE, even though straight game mechanics wouldn't support that.

What I see in PVE is that two monks can stave off incoming damage for an entire party, and that an elementalist or two can wipe out spawns very quickly with heavy damage builds - two with Searing Flames can output a tremendous amount of damage and just one can easily keep up with or surpass a necromancer. Warriors and dervishes can take a heavy pounding while themselves putting out a lot of damage and conditions - and you're wrong about conditions not being meaningful in PVE. Sure, no one's going to look for a conditions spammer specifically, but the ability to apply a few conditions does help.

I'm not seeing necromancers massively outperforming the other professions as you say. I'm sorry, my experience is not in line with yours.

Illuminator · Apr 05, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I got some great ideas for the mesmer in the next update!!
Energy Surge AOE is gone because its sooo overpowered to burn 8 energy, and combined with Energy Burn you can burn away more then 75% of a warriors energy!!11! Imba!!
And lets make diversion last for only 3 seconds!!!
Empathy is so overpowered in PVE so now the damage is 1-10.

We hope that this update will bring Mesmer closer to our goal to make them just look pretty.

GG A-Net plz can stab me in the back again? Izzy seems to be a freakin Wammo that thinks Mesmer are sooo overpowered because we shatter his mending and we cast diversion so all his attack skills are recharging and he can't recast medning because he is out of energy.

And while you're at it delete every mesmer skill and let us wand everything to death.

-.-"

Sar Luna · Apr 05, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Magdalene

As I understand it, warrior dps is much better than you say here.

I'm not seeing necromancers massively outperforming the other professions as you say. I'm sorry, my experience is not in line with yours.

Perhaps it is I who is mistaken. I have been out of the GW loop for a while, having been back in it for less than a month. Perhaps I am not seeing things as clearly as I thought I did. As you mentioned, yes, MM reigns supreme in most of Factions (which is the most recent campaign I completed). My own little Necro is recently remade, currently 14 or so, and absolutely laying waste to NF with an MM build. Perhaps I jumped to conclusions based on insufficient first-hand evidence.

I bow to your probably superior experience, sir/madam.

Yanman.be · Apr 05, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by berlioz7

Why ruin soulreaping? Kill the majority (pve) because of a few complaints by the minority (pvp). This is the worst news Ive heard in a long time. Please do us all a favor and separate the way skills work in PVP and PVE.

Trust me, it will not ruin PvE.

Zeph · Apr 05, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

From the slightly vauge description, it really looks like a bad update for pve necros but I'll wait until I try it before making a real judgement. I really really hope this isn't as bad is it sounds.

I seriously think anet should have gone the no energy from spirits route though rather than a across the board nerf.

bungusmaximus · Apr 05, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I don't get the complaints of PvE necro's at all. From all the classes I played through the game the necro was by far the easiest. I never had to worry about energy at all and besides that necros also got some pretty neat e-management skills. Playing a necro in PvE was TOO EASY to begin with, with a few well placed curses you could wipe entire mobs in second and my MM olias could keep BR on both the monks, maintain an entire minion army and strip enchantments on reharge. Man I finished three campaigns on my necro with one hand behind my back, well deserved nerf to SR imo. Sick of fighting spirit spammer builds in PvP with monks disguised as necros making every effort useless. Necro's were overpowered in both PVE and PVP imo.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.Kougar

It's not? From what I've seen of PvP you have the majority of people using the exact same builds over and over again, unable to be creative at all and having to copy their builds down from a website just to be allowed on a team with most PvP groups. How is that not predictable?

Its funny that PvE players are all high horsey on gimmick builds... How many builds every go into Tombs? ... 1, B/P

Who farms underworld? 55 + 1 or Trap team

Who farms FoW? W/Me....

These gimmicks have been prevalent for SOOOO long now, don't give us a BS about PvE being dynamic etc crap. The fact that you know exactly who to expect and what skills they use makes PvE so easy.

If they changed the monster builds and positioning each instance, that would make it so much more interesting. Heck even the bosses stay the same places post prophecies.

Soul Reap is nerfed the wrong way imo. But for christ sakes, stop crying about obviously overpowered crap.

LONGA · Apr 05, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Just play Mesmer recently. What can I say about mesmer update.
Less people playing damage , diverison build.More E-daniel. (Hint Signet of weariness)

Patrick Smit · Apr 05, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

Anet needs to hire someone else who actually knows how to do skill balance.

WOW! Since when you see Paragon Spike brings in Rt to put spirits? Anet is promoting Paragon spike?

Diversion's recharge needs to be longer as it is one of the most powerful shutdown when you equipped with MoR.

With smite hex on equal mesmers (using mor that is) you destroy diversion so easily, diversion is easily interupted as well. Hexbreaker works great against those solely placed diversions, while a prevail can do its job as well. 10-12 seconds is ok. The 2 seonds is a micro-nerf and will not have great impact to my opnion, it will still be taken in the game, and used widely.

jummeth · Apr 05, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Have you considered that SR was too good for both PvE and PvP?

Whenever I play Necro in PvE, I can spam Arc Echoed 15en spells on a 10 sec recharge with no energy management!.... I can't even do that properly with my Elementalist without elite E-man.

Consider the imbalanced primary attribute FIXED, not just because of spirit spam, (which where it has been fixed is still to be seen) but actually because SR was too powerful in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

With smite hex on equal mesmers (using mor that is) you destroy diversion so easily, diversion is easily interupted as well. Hexbreaker works great against those solely placed diversions, while a prevail can do its job as well. 10-12 seconds is ok. The 2 seonds is a micro-nerf and will not have great impact to my opnion, it will still be taken in the game, and used widely.

With a mesmer using MoR, they already have a 3.5 sec recharging spot hex removal... Remove Hex.

Cass · Apr 05, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I'm generally disgusted with the direction of the changes. Easy damage is favored, and more difficult shutdown is nerfed. So skill is taking another blow and C-Space prevails. I don't see why.

Example of easy damage is the dervish buffs. Gaile posted "We're attempting to further equalize elite power in the Dervish line, starting with longer durations on the lesser-used avatars.". No, you buffed ALL of them. There is NO skill involved in using these "godmode" avatars. In particular the Grenth's auto-enchant removal is a fine example of unskilled meta-play. With meta-play I mean the ability to manipulate battle conditions rather than to deal direct damage. In this case, it's auto-enchant removal. No need to babysit someone to wait for that essential spirit bond shatter (at 15nrg and long recharge), just c-space and off it goes, and hey the Scythe does some handy AoE melee damage free of charge as well.

An example of skill taking a nerf is the (yet another) nerf to the mesmer domination skills. Indeed, MoR and diversion is powerful shutdown. Let's see what it costs to do that.

1) It takes your elite skillslot. Even with this, it is not a always-on situation, it has a few seconds offline time.

2) It requires you to cast diversion a lot. It's 10 energy, which is not trivial, and it has an easily interruptible casting time (1.5s at 16fc, which nobody runs). For continued casting of this, you'll need another skill, like spirit of failure, to maintain energy.

3) You rely on the hexes staying on.

4) You deal 0 damage whilst doing this.

Compare this to an interrupt ranger, using a slightly different approach to shut a caster down completely. He uses Practiced stance and choking gas.

1) He also wastes his elite, but this stance is always on, with room to spare.

2) He can spam his arrows free of charge, interrupting at the speed of his bow.

3) He does not rely on hexes and his interruption cannot be stopped even if the arrow misses (CG still hits). On the flipside, the foe can cast in-between shots. This is meager redemption though. Mostly, casting needs to be done at some point in team (heal, prot, spike etc), not when you happen to be in-between arrow hits. Even if you cast happily in-between hits, the ranger can take the cheap, fast-recharging skills savage and distracting shot. At close range and LoS, nothing will get through, unless it's a fast .25sec spell.

4) The bow deals damage all the time.

The ranger also has higher armor, takes half dmg from ele dmg and has cheap speed boosts (to stay in range and avoid dmg). The attack skill interrupts can be blinded/hexed, but the mesmer can be interrupted whilst casting. Most of the time, the ranger can eat a sandwich while he auto-attacks. The mesmer will have to sweat and keep a close eye on when the hex is removed or times out, to re-apply it. If there are more hexes on the foe (hexes work best en masse, think AoE suffering or such), it may have been removed unseen.

How is the mesmer so overpowered here that a NUMBER of domi skills had to be nerfed? Even if the addition of shame and the benefit of preventing fast-cast spells would make the mesmer option more attractive (esp. in high-enb gvg I suppose)... Is the mesmer not allowed to play an effective role? If the mesmer isn't great even in shutdown, what else then? Cast illusion hexes? Go use signet of clumsiness in pve, or is that a joke?

For the rest:
- Big boo on PvE only skills. It sucks, dont do it.

- No nerfs to the overpowered rit and sf spike gimmicks that run rampant in HA? And why are you so in love with R/W thumpers? Because it's another c-space character? Ok. Funny how mesmers were nerfed from doing fast cast fire (nerf to ele attune), but rangers can do hammer war all day.

Arduin · Apr 05, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

After reading 15 pages with posts either supporting or flaming these changes, I noticed not many people (well, clawofcrimson and LifeInfusion did) were discussing the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In our next update, we hope to add additional PvE-only skills to allow more attractive options for cooperative play,

With 'next update' does Gaile mean 'Eye of the North' or the general next update (like Xunlai storage increase)? Will there be PvE-only skills introduced before GW:EN goes live?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The addition of the new pet controls caused us to scale back the interrupting pet skills, and allowed us to rework Otyugh's Cry into a much more useful skill.

Gaile is speaking in the past tense, so the pet controls are already implemented? Did we miss something? Or is she just talking about it being tested by the Devs?

If anyone got some information about these subjects, which I've missed, please share it

seut · Apr 05, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

With 10 professions the game has reached a stage that cannot be balanced anymore. Take away some weight on one side of the scale and cookie cutters will emerge on the other side. There is no way to prevent Build Wars by changing skills drastically.

Enforce "Sealed Decks of the Week" for GvG & HA to make PvP require skill and not skillbars!

Kfoolu · Apr 05, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

As IF Necromancers didn't have poor energy management already, you had to nerf their primary attribute...It would've been a much less painfull decision to even lower the energy gain from dead spirits or just nulify it!

Evilsod · Apr 05, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Assassin:

Assassin's Remedy: now works on the next 1..10 attack skills.
Black Mantis Thrust: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Dancing Daggers: increased damage to 5..35.
Golden Lotus Strike: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Jagged Strike: increased Bleeding duration to 1..15 seconds, decreased recharge time to 1 second.
Malicious Strike: increased damage to 10..30.
Recall: changed functionality to "While you maintain Recall, nothing happens. When Recall ends, you Shadow Step to the ally you targeted when you activated this skill."
Sharpen Daggers: now works on the next 1..10 attack skills.
Signet of Toxic Shock: decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Some nice changes... but until SP/BoA is nerfed, i really can't see anyone caring. I managed to become a 'master' of that build the moment i created it. It takes no skill to instantly kill 75% of players and they're everywhere. Nerf the damn thing if you want to see assassins actually using different skillbars.

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Dervish:

Avatar of Balthazar: increased duration to 10..90.
Avatar of Dwayna: increased duration to 10..75.
Avatar of Grenth: increased duration to 10..45.
Avatar of Lyssa: increased duration to 10..90.
Avatar of Melandru: decreased Health bonus to 100.
Grenth's Grasp: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Natural Healing: increased the amount healed for to 40..150 Health, decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
Onslaught: Decreased Energy cost to 5.
Pious Haste: increased duration to 5..12 seconds.
Rending Sweep: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Vow of Silence: decreased casting time to .25 second.
Vow of Strength: increased duration to 20 seconds.
Zealous Vow: increased duration to 20 seconds.

Will you stop referring to Lyssa as lesser used. Go play some frigging PvE, its the most used Avatar out there for people who want to cause havoc. But hey i'm not complaning. If your a scythe wielding Dervish, Crippling Sweep > Grenths Grasp, full stop. I do like the cast time increase on VoS though.

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Elementalist:[LIST][*]Armor of Mist: decreased casting time to 1 second.[*]Conjure Flame/Frost/Lightning: increased damage to 10..25.[*]Glyph of Lesser Energy: now reduces the cost of your next 2 spells by 10..18 Energy, based on the Energy Storage attribute.[*]Mind Blast: increased damage to 15..75.[/LIST

]

Enough with the buffs to Conjures! Jesus, Kindle Arrows is starting to look very bad now.

Quote:

Mesmer:

Auspicious Incantation: changed to "For 20 seconds, the next spell you cast is disabled for an additional 10..5 seconds, and you gain 110..200% of that spell's Energy cost."
Diversion: increased recharge time to 12 seconds.
Ether Signet: decreased recharge time to 45 seconds.
Keystone Signet: decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Guilt: duration changed to 6 seconds, decreased recharge time to 25 seconds.
Mistrust: duration changed to 6 seconds.
Shame: duration changed to 6 seconds.
Shared Burden: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Signet of Clumsiness: increased damage to 15..60.
Spirit of Failure: Decreased Energy gain to 1..3, increased recharge time to 20.

So your nerfing almost the entire Domination line because of Mantra of Recovery? Mesmers *do* run other elites you know, you just screwed over any reason to bring those skills without MoR now. For the record, nobody cares what you do to Keystone Signet.

Quote:

Monk:

Zealous Benediction: decreased Energy gained to 7.
Convert Hexes: decreased casting time to 1 second.
Deny Hexes: attribute changed to divine favor.
Reverse Hex: decreased casting time to .25 second.
Reversal of Damage: decreased recharge time to 6 seconds.
Signet of Rejuvenation: increased the amount of unconditional healing to 15..75.
Smite Hex: decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.

So... ZB is now an almost free direct heal in the Protection line...

Quote:

Necromancer:

Animate Bone Horror: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Animate Vampiric Horror: decreased Energy cost to 15.
Enfeebling Touch: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.
Mark of Fury: decreased Energy cost to 5.
Mark of Subversion: changed duration to 6 seconds.
Poisoned Heart: decreased Energy cost to 5, decreased recharge time to 12 seconds.
Price of Failure: increased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Reckless Haste: increased Energy cost to 15.
Soul Reaping: now only provides Energy at a maximum rate of once every 5 seconds.

Of all the possible methods of nerfing SR, why this one?

Paragon:

"They're on Fire!": now only affects party members.
Anthem of Envy: damage bonus increased to 10..25.
Anthem of Fury: decreased recharge time to 10 seconds, now only affects party members.
Anthem of Flame: now only affects party members.
Anthem of Guidance: now only affects party members.
Crippling Anthem: now only affects party members.

Just delete this damn profession already. Its been nerfed more times in the last few months than most other professions have since GW was released. Theres no point even playing them anymore, specially in PvE.

Quote:

Ranger:

Antidote Signet: decreased recharge time to 4 seconds.
Archer's Signet: decreased casting time to 2 seconds, skill disable time improved to 15..5.
Bestial Mauling: decreased Dazed duration to 4..10 seconds.
Disrupting Lunge: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Heal as One: decreased recharge time to 8 seconds.
Lightning Reflexes: decreased recharge time to 30 seconds.
Needling Shot: damage bonus increased to 10..30.
Otyugh's Cry: changed to "For 10..25 seconds, all allied animal companions gain +24 armor and cannot be blocked."
Pestilence: changed to "Create a level 1..10 Spirit. When any creature within its range dies, Conditions on that creature spread to any creature in the area already suffering from a Condition This Spirit dies after 30..90 second[s]."
Spike Trap: increased damage to 10..40.
Trapper's Focus: increased duration to 10..25 seconds.
Tripwire: increased damage to 5..20.
Viper's Nest: increased damage to 5..35.

I still can't see any reason to use Vipers Nest. Not like you need high BM even while trapping, put the damn thing in Wilderness Survival. The change to Otyugh's Cry is... random, sounds good to me.

Quote:

Antidote Signet was strictly inferior to the Paragon's Remedy Signet, so we reduced its recharge time to match.

This skill only removes certain conditions... i would have more luck spamming Signet of Malice while running Apply Poison/Screaming Shot or just using Mending Touch! Nobody gives a damn about this skill, its useless. But what happened to the rest of the bow skill changes? Keen Arrow is still bugged, the Prophecies skills are all useless/inferior.

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Warrior:

"Shields Up!": decreased duration to 5..11 seconds, and reduced armor bonus to +24.
Barbarous Slice: increased damage to 5..30.
Crippling Slash: now also inflicts Bleeding.
Dwarven Battle Stance: increased attack speed boost to 33%.
Heavy Blow: decreased adrenaline cost to 5 strikes.
Mighty Blow: increased damage bonus to 10..40.
Savage Slash: decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Seems the hammer is getting some lovin'. Bout time Shields Up got nerfed, 50 armour and 18 duration was ridiculous for a non-elite. Even so its still better than most Paragon skills now,

Mysterial · Apr 05, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The Recall buff doesn't make any sense. The Deny Hexes buff is awesome. The Crippling Slash buff might be too awesome.

I could be misunderstanding, but I believe the Recall change is just that the enchantment is on the Assassin rather than the target. So you can easily strip it to get rid of him.

I think whether Crippling Slash is too good depends on which condition goes on top.

Traveller · Apr 05, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I do agree that soul reaping needed a fix, but I reckon that the suggestions in the forums were more reasonable. Think about it like this: it says SOUL reaping. Do spirits or minions have souls? No? So don't make soul reaping trigger on them. Make it trigger on living beings, be it humans in PvP or mobs in PvE. (also do not make it trigger on Wammos, who have obviously sold their souls by using mending.) Much better fix in both sides of the game.

Constant mesmer and paragon nerfing seems really disappointing. Keystone signet is a bit less crap than before, whoop-di-doo. No one will still use it. A-Net, you better have those "good PvE options for mesmers" ready which you promised a while back, since now it's just frustrating to watch the constant nerfing.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Apr 05, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

This skill only removes certain conditions... i would have more luck spamming Signet of Malice while running Apply Poison/Screaming Shot or just using Mending Touch! Nobody gives a damn about this skill, its useless.

Make it remove cripple and I might bring it.

Guildmaster Cain · Apr 05, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Im gonna play my MM non-stop till this nerf hits... Then im gonna delete the build.